[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jr9gLoUdtyc[/video]

I have to admit, I like James Keating. He and his entire enterprise have a sort of zaniness that you don't really see anymore. Despite the massive weaboo aura surrounding the man, he does know his stuff. (I believe spyderco collaborated with him on the Civilian)

Anyway, this was his video overview for a sub-hilt fighting knife that his company is peddling. It's easy to retreat into mall ninja promotion of this sort of thing (for him, its hard not to), but he does clearly explain the design and provide some insight as to why it is the way it is.

Some more info on the knife:

[www.jamesakeating.com]

Keating's website if you need to bring some fun into your day:

[www.jamesakeating.com]

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/10/2014 11:07PM by Bugout Bill.

Nice looking knife. It's cool that he offers it in 1095. I can't imagine owning a knife made for fighting though.

Gavin: I hear you.

I personally have a weak spot for fighting knives for aesthetic reasons. This one could certainly have some utility use, as well as being effective for something like boar hunting.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

Looks great! I am a sucker for a sub-hilt.

I think if knife fighting become some sort of sport like say fencing, it would have at least some grounding in reality.

Quote
Old Spice
I think if knife fighting become some sort of sport like say fencing, it would have at least some grounding in reality.

Well, in the US the situation might be different because guns are so readily available, but in countries with stricter gun laws, there's a distinct proportion of inmates who got in for killing with knives. And by that, I don't mean somebody who grabs a kitchen knife and stabs their partner in anger (that happens too), but I mean a thug who wears a knife for a long time until some day he stabs or slashes somebody to death with it.

While knife dueling and knife to knife contact is 99.9% percent fantasy, knife fights do happen, they just tend to be more unilateral in nature.

Killing someone with a knife is not the same as fighting someone with a knife. How many news stories can you link to were people actually dueled with a knives?

You seem to think fighting [en.wikipedia.org] is the same as dueling [en.wikipedia.org]. In general, that is not true, for fighting there is no prerequisite that weapons are matched. So, while all duels are fights, not all fights are duels.

Do you really think a reason exists to design special fighting knives?





Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/12/2014 10:04AM by Old Spice.

Well, that's a bit of a philosophical question, but I'll try

Probably the most important reason for which special fighting knives are designed nowadays is economic: there's a market for it, so people design fighters. Most of that market is, luckily, just a fantasy market, so these knives aren't used for fighting. But that's unimportant for the makers, actually, it's a good thing for them. No guilty conscience and no chance of a knife warrior coming back pissed because he almost died while using a poorly designed knife

For military and law enforcement, fighting knives make sense, IMO. Although they make a last resort weapon, that is never or almost never used for fighting, it's still better to have a knife a a last resort than to have to rely on strangling your opponent. In many armies around the world, the bayonet attack is still taught, although I imagine it's a very, very rare occurrence.

Another segment where these types of knife do get some use is domestic animal killing. In many places around the world especially during this time of the year pigs get killed, and what is best at this is a bayonet or another type of modded military blade.

The vast majority of people buying fighters buy them because , one way or another, they think they look cool. Not my cup of tea, but who am I to judge others, I do buy a sword from time to time, although I have no intention whatsoever of using it for killing anything, just because I like it.

Bogdan: Well put.

Interesting comment about domestic animal killling blades. Contrast this Old Hickoy hog slaughtering knife with a fighting blade:



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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

I don't understand knife fighting. If you have a knife, and you are attacked by someone else with a knife, why risk getting cut or stabbed? Throw your knife at their face, neck, groin or thigh and then run for it. Better yet, spray them in the face with pepper spray or shoot them with a gun.


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

Chum: Knife fighting (as in two individuals going at it with knives) doesn't really happen. It's usually a guy with a knife fighting people without them.

There is some basis for it, like Filipino martial arts and the others, but the majority of western knife fighting systems are intended for killing and little more. Even then, it is more intended to develop a degree of fighting spirit in an infantryman, rather than actually being employed in combat. At least that was the case with WWII combatives.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

Quote
Bugout Bill

Interesting comment about domestic animal killling blades. Contrast this Old Hickoy hog slaughtering knife with a fighting blade:

Hah nice to see a traditional pig sticker. In Romania people had to rely on improvizations or modifications of old military weapons for that.

It looks like a decent design for the job, excepting it looks rather easy for your hand to slip on the blade, something with a guard would be safer. Anyhow, the coolness factor is close to 0, at least if it were made of Cru Wear

Bogdan: It has lots of cool factor, considering that the Case made pig stickers saw use in WWII as improvised daggers.

Also, a design that may have taken cues from it, the Ek Commando dagger:



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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

Quote
Bugout Bill
Bogdan: It has lots of cool factor, considering that the Case made pig stickers saw use in WWII as improvised daggers.

My bad Bill, anyway it was more of an attempt at humor

More seriously, I still think there's a problem with the handle shape/lack of guard, while the blade shape makes it a great stabber, I would be afraid to stab this hard at something for fear my hands would slip on the blade, especially with muddy/sweaty/bloody hands.

As an aside, a lot of people are into and do train with edge weapons for self-defense. Are they used, who knows, but the market is there just like it is for paint ball guns.

The thing I respect about guys like Keating is that he says the things in public that a lot of people say in private. You can disagree with his claims/statements sure, but at least you know what they are.

Cliff: Very true.

I like that Keating (and to some degree Michael Janich) also provide some degree of justification for their claims or techniques, although Keating tends to focus a lot more on skill than Janich.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

A few things about using a knife to fight with that I have learned. One the knife is the worst weapon to use for self defense even with extensive training. Both from a legal and practical stand point. They are considered lethal force, even if used in a non lethal way. Also it takes years of practice to make them really usable for most people,also is must be practiced regularly, it is a vanishing skill without at least weekly training.
The knife though has great flexibility both in stealthy use and levels of force if one is very well trained. It does have one great limiter, knives when used as weapons often are used once in a fight and ruined in that first fight as well. They often break off tips, snap at the hilt, or chip the edge almost beyond repair; sometimes all of the above or something else.
Slashing is very ineffective when heavy clothing is present, stabs are very effective despite clothing. Most slashes are done to the eyes, throat, and inner part of the arms. Stabs are done mostly to the torso and legs. The skull is almost never a target because the knife will become stuck a lot of the time, or glance off the skull with superficial damage.
Throwing a knife is a poor choice, it disarms you and possibly arms them. Except for heavy competition throwing knives that weigh at minimum a pound and have no edge at all most knives when thrown don't do a lot of damage and is more likely to tick off the person hit. At best it is a distraction technique.
Most knife attacks are stealth based, close the distance with no sign of threat then at the last second attack with rapid thrusts and slashes.
Lastly the most common user of a knife for fighting are crooks and such. Most martial artists that train to use them also do everything and anything to avoid a fight, because of being trained to use them in a fight.
All that said I still would prefer a blade in my hand than open hands of I had to defend myself....but I've been training to use a knife to fight with since I was 13.

I second that, a knife beats not having one.

TerriLigunn: All very good points, thank you for the input. That sort of info is always appreciated.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

I have actually been in a few real knife fights, and they suck. Not my idea of fun.

I'm calling

on this thread. No more knife fighting nonsense please. This thread is getting danger close to being the most mall ninja thread here.

I've got the scars, want pictures, police and hospital reports? It isn't something I am proud of, I lived a good part of my life like a total degenerate, a bouncer and a criminal. Let me clarify a little more, in real life, it is rare that there is knife on knife combat, it is most of the time asymetrical combat, ie knife vs unarmed, knife vs gun, knife vs bat, ect (more even than you'd think the closer the two are to each other). Knife fighting in street fighting is more like a fight that includes a knife.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12/19/2014 09:02AM by jasonstone20.

As to the knife it has certain elements that make it impractical for its intended purpose.
Mostly the "Trigger" does this it limits grip variation, ease of gripping, and changing grips quickly. It also hurts like heck when you hit a hard object with a thin metal bar stuck between two fingers.
The only knives that I know that doesn't make your fingers feel like they are broken is the Cold Steel brand like the OSI. It is flattened out enough that it just hurts.

A really interesting knife. That website is amazing though! I think Tim and Eric must have been involved.
My view on fighting knives is that they're definitely in the realm of fantasy in that they're almost never used for their intended purpose. However it should be kept in mind that this doesn't mean that they're not well designed. There's a big distinction between the idiotic multi bladed mall ninja stuff you get from chinese markets over her which are designed to look cool and fighting knives. While both are fantasy items, these chinese knives are designed with the intent to look cool/extreme and nothing else. Fighting knives are chock full of functional design intent, their blades are ground with use in mind, balance is taken into account and the handles are really, really well thought out for a specific set of needs and uses, it's just that these needs are somewhat fabricated.
With all that said though, I think a lot can be learnt from fighting knives. The concept of a handle with incredibly high retention is totally valid and can be applied to a great many blades. Examples could include diving knives, bladesport knives or even food prep knives that are used in slippery environments such as a fishing knife. At the very least, they have a unique aesthetic which can be leveraged to give a bit of cool factor to an actually practical blade.