Spyderco K2 Farid

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Eee

...

The design seems far more congruent if you regard it from the perspective of the actual users

- the lock is easy to clean
- the steel is very wear resistant when cutting soft materials such as food
- the blade is long enough to cut a decent size bread roll and a toothy edge would suit this
- the knife looks badass for flicking open and closed when sitting around the campfire; the heavy handle helps spydie drops

Ha, and people claim I say offensive things.

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Chum,

I really believe he finds that disrespectful. I would really like to meet him as I find his behavior very curious as I can't imagine how it is to think that way.

I know Farid from dealing with him for a few years...buying Micarta, Titanium, and CF
He is Indian by race, but his English is very good...we have no problems with each other...

He DOES take things personally, so folks that know him learn not to wind him up...

We all have our quirks, so I guess that is his?

He does do chunky and solid stuff, but then he always has...look in early Knives Annuals by Ken Warner...

A review of one of his choppers using 10V in the UK on eucalypt wood...

"Just got back in from the garden, where I used this Farid chopper in CPM-10V to strip a recently felled 25 metre eucalyptus of all its minor branches, and then cut them into lengths short enough for burning (not allowed large fires)... must have been hundreds of heavy cuts through 1-inch plus and it still slices paper... the steel is incredible."

[www.bushcraftuk.com]

I think this is a knife that would be bought by my little brother. He will receive the package, put on his film handling gloves, open the package, take the knife out, open it, maybe shave a little hair, wipe it down with soft cotton cloth, apply a thin coat of virgin mineral oil, close it, put it back in the box, put the box in a large zip lock plastic bag with packet of dessicant, store on the shelf with 50+ similar knives.
I dont understand the designer not answering basic questions without thinking they are attacks. I mean all he had to say is "Hey, I like to use the steel, I like the way it looks, and I like the checks it will bring me for the next year." another example of appearance beating fit and function.
scott

I have not cut Eucalyptus, however the most basic of steels in simple knives can easily do hundreds of chops into woods and easily slice paper. I do that all the time with very inexpensive knives and this includes natural lumbers such as pine, spruce, oak, birch, juniper and lumbers (mostly spruce and fir) and laminates like OSB and plywood.

Often times in a lot of these cases the first decent knife the individual sees sets up a bias that is never removed. My brother for example will describe the Cold Steel Trailmaster with nothing resembling reality because his memory of it isn't the actual knife but how it performed compared to everything else he used at the time. It was the first blade heavy blade with a full flat grind and decent edge/angle configuration and thus the relative performance was significantly greater than he had seen, especially when compared to its fairly low weight.

Now can you make a blade out of 10V to cut wood, sure, but it has to be one of the silliest things you could do, why - because

(a) natural woods you cut that are not bought from a lumber yard are dirty

(b) high cutting efficiency is critical

10V has a much lower impact toughness and apex stability than something like S5 (any decent mid carbon steel) and thus will require a heavier edge cross section which means lower cutting ability.

10V also will take far more damage cutting dirt and grit and be much longer/harder to sharpen.

Yes, if you do some kind of comparison on clean wood and you grind both blades to where they don't cut well the 10V may show stronger edge retention - but what really is that showing practically? Just be careful of the actual question you are answering as it might be very different than the question which most people would want answered.

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But at any level you have to give guys like Farid credit for using all of these alloys, the only way that you can really know what they do is by using them. If no one was willing to make knives in all of the steels we have then we would not even be in a position to make these statements.

They are just results I've gathered from use over the years. I wouldn't call it conclusive by any means more my opinion.

As an aside him saying about Cliff ripping on him, who cares? Cliff states what things are and his perspective. Not everyone is going to like your knives. There is a great difference on critisicm on your product and you as a person.

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Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 09/14/2014 07:31PM by KWB.

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CliffStamp


Ha, and people claim I say offensive things.

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Chum,

I really believe he finds that disrespectful. I would really like to meet him as I find his behavior very curious as I can't imagine how it is to think that way.

Offensive or self-aware

I can't honestly say that my usage with a folder, whilst frequent, is significantly harder than those tasks.

To pick up on another point, Farid's English is very good, however, there was an example of how easy it is to misinterpret things when I was at his stand at a knife show, A local knife maker was chatting with him and explaining how Farid had been an inspiration to him. This knifemaker is innovative in the shapes he uses and uses a lot of recycled materials and scrap. He seems to get access to alloys from ex military sources, claimed to be armour plating and the like, some of which he doesn't know the composition of. He was asking Farid (because of his use of Titanium, Stellite, and 'exotic' steels) if he had any ideas what a sample was. Farid said he didn't know but 'I could get a friend of mine in the states to use his machine to analyse it'. The conversation continued for some time along other tracks until the moment when the knifemaker asked Farid if he would send it to his friend.

It was very embarrassing when it became obvious that Farid was saying he' could' as in 'had the option to' but had no intention of doing so. Farid had done nothing wrong, neither had the knifemaker - one message had been transmitted and another had been received.

Farid does seem to believe his own hype and be sensitive to anything threatening that, but presumably this is another side of those parts of his personality that have driven him to try so many materials. Sometimes it is our character flaws that lead use to be exceptional in some other way

My problem with Farid is not so much the knives themselves actually, it is just his general attitude when questioned.

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Eee

It was very embarrassing when it became obvious that Farid was saying he' could' as in 'had the option to' but had no intention of doing so. Farid had done nothing wrong, neither had the knifemaker - one message had been transmitted and another had been received.

Yes, that is an example of what I am talking about in a very subtle manner which can happen even in both native English speakers.

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As an aside, the thread to me is another curious example of how people can not see the obvious bias in that they will argue you should not criticize the knife until you have used it or even question the design - but praise is not only accepted it is encouraged. How it is not immediately obvious that leads to hype and misinformation as there is no method of self-correction?

He has just done a bunch of cutting tests in Spyderco forums...
Thoughts, anyone?

[www.spyderco.com]

I have not done Kevlar cutting, aside from that :

-no reference blade
-no control for measurement bias

There is nothing in that that stands out to me as being significant in terms of performance.

I have cut a lot of Kevlar, when I made vests...
What he called thick Kevlar, was not...

At the risk of sounding self centred, Gary has about 5 Serratas I made for him, and he could have done a quick comparison...
I will ask him via email?

That would be a point to start.

I asked in the thread, I doubt the response will be enlightening, however I still have to ask.

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Ankerson

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Chum
I work at a plant nursery, and everything I cut is dirty. Dirty cardboard, dirty plastic planters, dirty twine... and sometimes just dirt itself when cutting into roots.

Would CPM10V be a good steel choice for this kind of work, or would I be better off using something with less wear resistance like VG10, or perhaps something softer still like H1? My old Delica in G2 doesn't chip very much at the edge from this kind of cutting, but it does dull fairly quickly.

If I'm to get a new Spyderco for this type of cutting would I be better of with something like 10V, H1 or something in between in terms of wear resistance?

I recommend getting something cheap and keeping a ceramic rod around to sharpen with....

Something like an Opinel or the Spyderco Bird Line...

Gurl, that's throwing shade right there.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

Ignoring the steel, I like the Spyderco design better than the original. Look at the where the blade edge starts on the custom, and compare that with the Spyderco version:







The custom one has a weird ricasso. Farid left a large portion of unsharpened metal and the edge starts about 1.25" in front of where the forefinger would be on the knife when it's gripped. I wonder if he built his K2 that way to intentionally decrease leverage. Even ignoring that, the pitted (whatever it's called) blade finish is extremely unappealing. Spyderco's satin finish is much more attractive.

The Spyderco version looks "cleaner", has a better ricasso, and what appears to be much less distance between forefinger and blade edge. I just can't get over that huge distance and blocky ricasso on the original. Terrible.

The weird ricasso is because his design has the stop pin differently placed compared to the Spyderco version...and yes, the Spy version looks cleaner...

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Bugout Bill
Gurl, that's throwing shade right there.

I never thought I would hear that on this forum.

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Stuart Ackerman
The weird ricasso is because his design has the stop pin differently placed compared to the Spyderco version...and yes, the Spy version looks cleaner...

My question was more about why anyone would design a knife that way. It wastes the portion of the blade that gives the most leverage and there isn't even a finger rest to show for it. With a finger choil the user gets something in return for losing some cutting length. No disrespect intended to Farid, but it's a bad design if one of our goals is anything related to performance. It also looks bad, so there isn't even aesthetic appeal to fall back on to explain the design choice. Additionally the pitted finish is ugly. It's a poor imitation/reinterpretation of a brut de forge finish. 10V, Rex-121 and other steels were obviously not hammer forged, so the brut de forge look is out of place and smacks of laziness, as if he were too lazy to simply finish a satin grind on the flats. That pitted finish also greatly reduces corrosion resistance, which is a concern on a knife that's going to get used (assuming his knives get used). Last but not least the saber grind is inefficient for cutting and again looks lazy with that pitted finish.

The Spyderco collaboration fixes several major problems with the K2:
1. The wasted space in the ricasso is reduced to a much smaller amount so leverage is increased.
2. The inefficient saber grind is changed out for a full flat grind, again increasing cutting efficiency.
3. The stupid and out of place brut de forge imitation is removed in favor of a clean satin finish, increasing aesthetic appeal and increasing corrosion resistance on the non-stainless steel used for the blade.

So what we're left with is a product that is not only cheaper than the original, but has design features implemented to increase performance...and those design choices make the overall product more aesthetically appealing. I look at the two knives and it's like looking at the 1st draft of an essay versus a polished final version.

I think you summed it up, he likes the brut de forge, so the science in the design is secondary...

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CliffStamp


As an aside, this forum isn't going to become a place where people turn to make criticisms of makers in some kind of exclusive private club. I have no issue with criticisms, but if you are going to make those arguments then you really need to make them in the areas where the makers/manufacturers can see them and respond. If you get banned for that then there is no issue with making them here, but this won't become some kind of private/exclusive maker pin cushion. If you are not willing to criticize someone directly, please don't do it here unless you really have a good reason (like banning, harassment, etc.)

To clarify this, my point was that the goal of this forum is to be a place where we learn, if we don't ask the questions where the people of interest can't see them then we are removing a chance to learn and most people do that not to learn but to rant for various reasons, and this isn't intended to be that kind of forum. However in reflection based on a discussion with a user here and a moderator, given the response from Farid and the general tone of the thread in question on Spyderco's forum, it isn't unreasonable for someone to post here rather than there as it isn't reasonable to say someone has to endure that kind of response as while I find it trivial not everyone may.

What I would ask is that if you are going to make a complaint here than you make some effort to let the other party know unless they have no interest in it, or the response would be expected to be hostile based on past events.

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KWB

As an aside him saying about Cliff ripping on him, who cares? Cliff states what things are and his perspective.

Kyle, in many cases what people like Farid are responding to is not what I said but what other people have told him I have said/done. Just ask around, you can get told some pretty extreme stories. What I actually say about Farid and knives/makers in general can be see here :

Spyderco thread : [www.spyderco.com]

which references a Farid 121REX blade. Is that showing some kind of personal attack on Farid, I can't see how you can interpret it that way but there are people who actually believe that entire thing was a set up by me, Kyley and Old Spice to promote Kyley's knife.

This is why Ankerson is a major figure in the internet knife world:

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Ankerson
Anything you would want to cut with a knife using a knife as a knife not as a pry bar, cold chisel, screwdriver or any other type of gross abuse. Not exactly a brittle steel, we are talking about a folder here not a 1/4" thick heavy duty fixed blade that's has pry bar geometry. Although 10V can be used in those types of knives if one wants, would be overkill for those types of uses though as there are cheaper steels that are easier to work with and easier to get.

So if someone wants a folder that will hold and edge for an extremely long time compared to the more normal lower alloy steels and likes the K2 than it would be a win.

Without having on in hand I can't say more, but I do know a lot about CPM 10V (A11) and it's attributes.

Actually there is a custom maker that will be making a large thick field knife in 10V that I will be testing in the future, I will be beating it like I did all the other heavy duty knives in the past.

-He isn't saying anything particularly hyperbole laden or overly emotional manner.
-He ain't wrong.
-He provides a reasonable analysis of the steel's advantages and disadvantages.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

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Bugout Bill

-He ain't wrong.

He isn't correct :

-the edge retention isn't higher, those kinds of statements show a complete lack of understanding of edge retention

-if it isn't brittle then what is a brittle steel, it has among the lowest impact toughness of any cutlery steel used

-if you are not using the knife for prying what is the purpose of the stock thinkness

and so on.

Cliff:

In regards to edge retention, 10V does have high abrasive wear resistance. Correct?

You said among the lowest, it isn't the lowest.

You are correct on the final point.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

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Bugout Bill
Cliff:

In regards to edge retention, 10V does have high abrasive wear resistance. Correct?

It only has high abrasive wear resistance in low strain rate testing. It doesn't even have high abrasive wear in general. Even no cases does high abrasion resistance equate to high edge retention, in fact in many cases it can lower it though usually indirectly. As an example :

[oldforum.beyondt01micron.com]

Note the 10V type steel there (k390) has among the lowest edge retention. There are many other examples, see the work Chris has done for example comparing various steels and of course Alvin and Roman.

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You said among the lowest, it isn't the lowest.

The only steels which are more brittle would be 15V, Maxamet, 121REX, etc. . If you can't call it brittle when it has lower toughness than the vast majority of cutlery steels then you can't say it has high wear resistance for the same reason.

Cliff: So high carbide steel is useful on soft, abrasive materials, correct? Is this low strain testing?



I was trying to make a wider point about internet knife experts as well.

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Bill22252 on YouTube. "See you space cowboy"

Resident Emerson Fanboi

Folding knives are fun, fixed blades are important.

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Bugout Bill
So high carbide steel is useful on soft, abrasive materials, correct?

Where it is useful is exactly the question of interest. In general you will find high carbide steels to have high performance when :

-your requirement for sharpness is low
-the cutting is very low impact
-there is no significant flexing
-requirements for cutting ability are low
-the material is abrasive
-there is no concern about machinability/grindability

Now does it make any sense at all to simply take that and generalize to "high performance" or "high edge retention" or in any way make some kind of generalization of 10V vs another blade steel.

All steels are high performance at something, the critical question is what and does that what actually translate into high performance for a particular application.

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Is this low strain testing?

That is actually a materials testing specification. When you measure abrasive wear it can be determined when the strain rate is high or when it is low. When Crucible first made a push for 3V they noted that in many uses it would have less wear than much higher carbide steels. However like most promotion it is argued in exclusion.

In general (I am simplifying) when an abrasive grinds into a steel there is an initial impact of contact and then ploughing and fracture starts as the abrasive cuts a channel into the steel. How much ploughing (deformation) vs how much fracture is dependent on the steel and how hard the abrasive makes contact with the steel.

Hence you can have a steel have high or low abrasion resistance depending on how hard you hit it with the abrasive. In very high strain rate testing, S7 can have higher abrasion resistance than D2 simply because the wear is taking place by fracture and not ploughing due to the strain rate.

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Chum

That never entered into my thought process, and I wouldn't have made these comments if it had. I almost posted something similar on the Spyderco forum, but I figured it would just rile people up and no good would have come of it. Glad I didn't.

However, if he does understand the questions, then I stand by my assumed translations. He is either ignorant or dishonest. I'm not sure how he could misinterpret the hunting question.

Read his latest rant, he actually found my defense of him in the above to be degrading, your arguement he didn't have any problem with. I don't think it can be more clear that he is interpreting things based on who writes them, not what is said.

In any case, if a user acted towards a maker like Farid acts towards a user then the response would be very different. It is unfortunate that Spyderco does collaborations with people like that vs people like Mike, Jeremy, Kyley, etc. .

But I can understand why, the knives will sell - I just find it a bit sad that you have to resort to that to make money, as Kevin Cashen has shown, you don't need to in order to be successful even on the highest level.

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CliffStamp
Read his latest rant

Just did... man, he really doesn't like you. All you did was ask him a question. I thought my post was much more damning and he did mention me at all. You will just have to bear the burden of fame/infamy Cliff

btw... you can actually see the steam coming out of his ears in his posts when he talks about you getting one of his knives for "free."


Chumgeyser on Youtube
E-nep throwing Brotherhood. Charter Member

I think he thought I was saying something like his English was so poor it had to be his second language which wasn't the case. I was noting that technical issues are difficult to translate even if you do speak a language very well. English is my native language and I still mix up technical terms from time to time because there is so much jibberish in it as everyone wants to make up special terms for everything. Often times you have to use different terms depending on who you are talking to to refer to the same thing.

I am actually curious what he is so offended by, maybe it is a cultural thing. I insulted a guy in India once when I noted his sibling was pretty when he showed me a picture (exact words). He inferred it as I was making some kind of lewd remark but I didn't mean anything by it. That kind of thing is said in passing here and doesn't mean you are attracted to the individual personally or are making an offer. People say "boy" a lot here as well which freaks some people out, like "come over here boy", or "pick that up boy". It is pronounced more like bye, but some people hear boy and get a bit insulted.

In any case if he doesn't want to dialogue, his loss, doesn't cost me anything that he doesn't want to learn.

English is rather funny like that. Where I am from to call someone boy in the manner you referenced is to speak as if you are above them, And usually as a direct insult.

I understand why he is getting upset but I think he doesn't like to be questioned in general.

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