Selecting the right Geometry Click to enlarge and read I've made so many knives in so many geometries, and generally i've like them all. generally id say they all have good cutting qualities, but they are not all good for the same thing. This first image is one i posted to instagram to outline how i see so many knives promoted as being amazingly thin at 0.010" behind the edge at 15-20 dps. but this really doesn't feel that thin to me. as small as it seems, this form of apex edge can still be very prohibitive to good cutting in plastics, woods etc that dont seperate easily. so this first chart was to show the difference in apex between one in a similar geometry to one of my small micro hikers, and a same knife had it been made from a normal factory at 0,010" with an overlay on the side to show the dramatic difference. [url=https://postimg.cc/zy1X4J0M][img]https://i.postimg.cc/zy1X4J0M/2020-05-27-17-55-58.jpg[/img][/url] now of course.. thinner is always better.. but sometimes thinner can mean too fragile. for examplea thin stock, high grind if you only have 2 bevels, primary/edge can end up too thin like a foil or super thin chef knife and not as strong as you want. in these cases, the problem i see with just thickening the apex for duability is that you have a knife that looks like it could cut like a laser, but really doesnt The answer to me is faceting, or convexing. this image shows 3 different knife profiles and why i personally tend to go for somewhere in the middle of the 2 extremes. the left section shows the 3 grinds up to the height where a 12dps scandi reaches stock thickness, then to the right of the text is an apex closeup showing the overlaps up to the point where the FFG would hit its 0.010" BTE, and then far right is the entire edge cross section. the reason i tend to go for the middle offering, or a convex version of it is to get the best of both worlds. i want the apex stability of the FFG at 15dps, but i only want it for enough to stabilize the apex against rolling.. so no more than 1-3 thousands in height. so this tiny bit may be subtly thicker than the scandi, but many scandi will also bolster the edge with a micro for the same reason. the scandi is liked because its thin apex can really bite in well, as can be seen from its thinness compared to the green FFG.. but the middle ground is even better to me, in that if you target 7dps (which is where a lot of real traditional finnnish knives not being cheap mora's are ground) then you really get the leanest bite into the material with good apex stability. but the difference between the long 7dps bevel compared to how a FFG is ground is that you can go very thin on the apex, without the steel being too thin behind it. there is a good support structure that is even, the apex is not stronger than the backing which can occur with an obtuse grind on FFG. that small increase in thickness behind the edge makes the knife a lot stiffer to support the thinner cutting edge. and in the terms of the entire knife, its really not a lot thicker than the FFG.. you end up with better entry, and stronger support. the trick is fine tuning this and blending it to get the best attributes.. [url=https://postimg.cc/SJ9xZX7C][img]https://i.postimg.cc/SJ9xZX7C/Edge-Profiles.jpg[/img][/url] Waht ends up happening is that you can end up with knives that appear thicker and as iff they should cut worse than thinner smaller knives but in most applications will do better just because of the apex geometries. an interesting knife tester a little different from catra in how it works in that it tests sharpness across the entire edge to see where on a blade wear is occurring the most for profiling use of a knife in industry, and working out how to sharpen a knife for best results, including variable edging. [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HftgTRplo4k[/video] in general though. i will always take thicker stock with thinner apex, than thinner stock with thicker apex. but for most utility, i think i prefer real scandi knives, where we are talking about 1.5- 2mm stock for knives and a grind that is no more than 7dps anywhere on the blade except the final few thousands of the edge. https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,77740#msg-77740 Thu, 23 Apr 2026 03:56:12 +0000 Phorum 5.2.23 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79360#msg-79360 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79360#msg-79360 [oldforum.beyondt01micron.com]]]> jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 20:48:11 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79356#msg-79356 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79356#msg-79356 jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 20:06:19 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79354#msg-79354 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79354#msg-79354
Quote
cKc


what was it when you got it? i thought these are ground zero? or is it just very close to zero?

They are ground zero and sharpened essentially, 0.0005 - 0.001" as Jason noted is barely visible as an edge bevel. Once you get under 0.005" they are hard to measure the edge outside of magnification.]]> CliffStamp I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 20:03:14 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79353#msg-79353 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79353#msg-79353 jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 19:53:42 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79352#msg-79352 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79352#msg-79352 It was 0.0005"-0.001" when I got it. The calipers I had then were harder for me to measure things with. I could barely measure behind the edge thickness, as it was registering anywhere from 0.001" to a zero grind. The ones I have now make things easier. They are zero ground with a microbevel when new, or at least how mine came. It thickened up to 0.0065", and I just reground it to 0.0025".]]> jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 19:35:19 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79350#msg-79350 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79350#msg-79350
Quote
jasonstone20
Well, I was wrong. I remeasure the Herder and it is 0.0065"/0.16mm BTE. I still am going to try and thin it out to the 0.005"/0.13mm BTE. I am using a 1x6" EZE-Lap XC #220 grit diamond plate.

what was it when you got it? i thought these are ground zero? or is it just very close to zero?

how did it get so thick?

sharpening practice? or just dulling it in use and sharpening a lot?]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 19:28:22 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79346#msg-79346 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79346#msg-79346 jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 19:01:56 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79345#msg-79345 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79345#msg-79345 jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 18:53:35 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79344#msg-79344 Re: Selecting the right Geometry { nagelprobe (nail flex test) } https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79344#msg-79344
Quote
ShaperAndMower

Interesting,
? 10dps at .08mm to .1mm behind edge
just what exactly is required for a nagelprobe (nail flex test)

For me personally it is my limit. I have ground below that And once I used the knife chipped out a piece of the primary edge.

Granted, I can go thinner with a convex/flat grind and leave more meat to support the primary given a hollow but I have always loved the looks more of a hollow ground blade.

Here is the hollow grind mentioned above.



And here is a full zero convex I did on the AD15










I still need to do more testing on the AD15]]> marthinus I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 18:45:24 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79343#msg-79343 Re: Selecting the right Geometry { nagelprobe (nail flex test) } https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79343#msg-79343
Quote
cKc
bending it with your nail, like BBB does with one or 2 of this knives isn't totally about how thin the BTE is but more about how thin the primary is after that.. on a short knife it tends to get thick too quickly for bending with just your nail.

thin
]

Wow that BBB is thin! Love it.]]> marthinus I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 18:37:12 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79335#msg-79335 Re: Selecting the right Geometry { nagelprobe (nail flex test) } https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79335#msg-79335
thin

Quote
ShaperAndMower
Quote
marthinus

I enjoyed this test and thread. Will be testing a lot more knives this way.

For clarification on the Cold Steel. It is in XHP.

Original thread of the knife

Interesting,
? 10dps at .08mm to .1mm behind edge
just what exactly is required for a nagelprobe (nail flex test)
]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 05:31:55 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79334#msg-79334 Re: Selecting the right Geometry { nagelprobe (nail flex test) } https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79334#msg-79334
Quote
marthinus

I enjoyed this test and thread. Will be testing a lot more knives this way.

For clarification on the Cold Steel. It is in XHP.

Original thread of the knife

Interesting,
? 10dps at .08mm to .1mm behind edge
just what exactly is required for a nagelprobe (nail flex test)]]> ShaperAndMower I am kind of a big deal. Thu, 02 Jul 2020 03:03:45 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79325#msg-79325 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79325#msg-79325
Quote
marthinus

I enjoyed this test and thread. Will be testing a lot more knives this way.

For clarification on the Cold Steel. It is in XHP.

Original thread of the knife

I like the test, because I find that if the edge dents or ripples on a hard cut across the skewer, then its prob too thin for edc use, but if it cant clean cut, and wants to snap split or bend then its too thick for good cutting.]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Wed, 01 Jul 2020 17:53:44 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79323#msg-79323 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79323#msg-79323
Quote
cKc
Instagram Nice Geometry

I enjoyed this test and thread. Will be testing a lot more knives this way.

For clarification on the Cold Steel. It is in XHP.

Original thread of the knife]]> marthinus I am kind of a big deal. Wed, 01 Jul 2020 17:01:36 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79320#msg-79320 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79320#msg-79320 Instagram Nice Geometry]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Wed, 01 Jul 2020 07:32:37 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79260#msg-79260 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,79260#msg-79260
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSDFLgq4EDs[/video]]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Sat, 27 Jun 2020 17:19:02 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78268#msg-78268 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78268#msg-78268
[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rarKuxaoeoo[/video]]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Tue, 09 Jun 2020 14:58:04 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78267#msg-78267 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78267#msg-78267
the primary camera auto focus is pinpoint accurate and also has manual touch the screen focus. just didn't realize the front cam didn't support it. lol]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Tue, 09 Jun 2020 13:50:09 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78266#msg-78266 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78266#msg-78266 YESH I am kind of a big deal. Tue, 09 Jun 2020 12:16:21 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78265#msg-78265 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78265#msg-78265 [video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTPDo9-FL6A&feature=youtu.be[/video]

Discuss.]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Tue, 09 Jun 2020 08:46:04 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78241#msg-78241 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78241#msg-78241
its still a bit weird that the blocked person doesn't know.

its been through a few iterations. for example when they tried to promote google + blocking a user wouldn't block the fact that they commented when looking at the blocked persons channel and page. you can see what they wrote against your video, even though on your video it was removed..]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Mon, 08 Jun 2020 10:29:45 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78240#msg-78240 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78240#msg-78240
Quote
cKc
so youtube changed block to "hide". i can hide you from my channel.
...
its a ridiculous and stupid move on youtube part. they assume people only block for bad reasons

Hi
I've read something that says thats how the feature always worked,
that youtube doesn't have a block feature like ?facebook or other sites,
that it always just hide the comments
it was always a " shadow ban "
https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/9482361?hl=en
4 years ago [FYI] "Hide this user's comments on this channel" is a shadow ban ]]> ShaperAndMower I am kind of a big deal. Mon, 08 Jun 2020 08:12:17 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78235#msg-78235 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78235#msg-78235
Quote
Nothingman

If it were not apparent, this sounds a whole lot like censorship...

yep. it is. what I guess happened is this..
previously you'd block someone antagonizing you. its your channel. you have the right to censor your own channel. don't have an issue with that. as I used to say.. if you don't like what I'm saying, its an open platform. state your own view, and then link the video in the commentary of mine, rather than fighting with me too much.
anyone that disagrees with me has the right to their own voice..

but now.. this is just a guess on my part.
lets say you are rude to me, or I don't like your comment and I block you..

immediately many people do a rant video saying XX blocked me, bla bla bla.. and then a bunch of followers start harassing the first guy..
case in point. SuperSteelSteve having F you Elliot in a background of his video.

so youtube changed block to "hide". i can hide you from my channel.

so now.. you are calling me a dumb shit, or arguing my point, but I never know you said it, and neither does anyone else.. but you think everyone can see it.. so you are sitting there waiting for the bait to be taken etc.. and nothing happens.. Deescalation is what they hope will happen..

more likely.. someone will do a video saying xx is too weak ass to reply to my comments..


its a ridiculous and stupid move on youtube part. they assume people only block for bad reasons]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Mon, 08 Jun 2020 04:43:01 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78217#msg-78217 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78217#msg-78217
From description in your video :

note youtube has this cool new feature.. you don't block people. you "hide" them so that they comment and always see their comments but think that they are being ignored.. however, no one else can see their comments.
its a very troll move on youtube part as someone can be commenting and never told that they are wasting their time. weird right?
so when you don't get a reply from me, you will never know :D :D :D


If it were not apparent, this sounds a whole lot like censorship...]]> YESH I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 23:18:21 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78216#msg-78216 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78216#msg-78216 That is because they barely carry the knife, never mind actually use the knife to cut things with. I explain to people the knives, steels, edge angles, ect I use, which is: a relief grind either flat to the stone or as close as possible, as I can get, as low as an apex angle I can get with the edge still staying intact with cutting, and steels that are Class I or Class II. The response I get is I need a Class III steel, and use angles >15° DPS, so I can see real knife performance. It is like a bad joke.]]> jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 23:14:33 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78213#msg-78213 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78213#msg-78213
Quote
jasonstone20

cKc,
I can't seem to get through to people.

It was ~20 years ago that Joe and Steve first wrote about how much performance was gained when they reground knives from factory angles/edges to lower angles/more coarse finishes. They were typically taking the 20-30 dps edge down to 15 degrees and leaving them with the medium Spyderco rod finish, or fine DMT.

Look at what people are doing now, still thinking 18 degrees is some kind of extreme/high performance edge. For reference, Cook's book on axes (which is a Bible for most people on Axes) recommends the same angle for a full size axe used for "dirty" work, roots and such. That isn't a high performance cutting grind even for an axe.

If you think your pocket knife needs the same angle as this :



Then something is seriously wrong.

[www.youtube.com]

The reality is that a very simple steel, 50Cr13MoV, which is the basic stainless steel, can easily handle something like :

-1/16" stock or less
-full height grind
-0.005"/10 dps edge

And that knife would out cut and out work every one of those >$500 folders all day long. And IF, anyone wants to argue that they use them all for "hard work", ok that's fine, but why does every review have the knife look like it never cut anything :

[www.youtube.com]]]> CliffStamp I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 20:55:23 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78211#msg-78211 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78211#msg-78211 Exactly! I don't get it.

cKc,
I can't seem to get through to people.]]> jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 20:35:58 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78202#msg-78202 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78202#msg-78202
Quote
cKc
anyone in the other basket is fine to stay there. its good exercise to make cutting hard.

LOL, they seem quite content doing so actually for the most part.]]> YESH I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 17:35:09 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78197#msg-78197 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78197#msg-78197
i don't mind sharing information to those that want to take it, experiment, and see if it helps them

anyone in the other basket is fine to stay there. its good exercise to make cutting hard.]]> cKc I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:58:48 +0000 https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78195#msg-78195 Re: Selecting the right Geometry https://oldforum.beyondt01micron.com/read.php?24,77740,78195#msg-78195 Yes, but people have to know about the procedure and that you can improve the cutting to suit the task. This is one of the things I have a hard time communicating to other people, they think is is all sharpening prowess, the type of steel, and HT. They are completely missing the point.]]> jasonstone20 I am kind of a big deal. Sun, 07 Jun 2020 16:43:39 +0000